(Health Warning: this is a rant)
Mena Trott (co-founder and president of Six Apart) gave, in my opinion, a badly toned and way-off-base speech at the Les Blogs conference in which she requested for more civility in the blogosphere. She appealed to bloggers to be kinder in their commenting, and think about the feelings of the person they are communicating with.
I found it very jarring on many levels. For a start, this was a European blogging conference – and one of the underlying challenges I took away from it was how we mediate the different cultural approaches to blogging across the different European countries. And that’s before you factor in the various different American cultures too (there were more Americans at this conference than anyone other than the French!).
How people comment and how people relate to one another on the blogosphere is a cultural issue – and it seemed strange for Mena to be advocating what sounded like a very ‘West-Coast America’ approach to a conference of Europeans. Europeans are, if anything, known for their frank exchanges during conversation – certainly more than the Americans.
It was also unfortunate that the examples Mena gave mainly concentrated on a post by Jeremy Zawodny (another Californian). Her examples also seemed to be indicating factual inaccuracies rather than matters of “civility”.
But overall I just found the presentation to be simply ill judged for the audience she was addressing. Sure, it might be a positive aspiration for everyone to be “nicer”, but surely that’s not an issue for the blogosphere? Surely if people don’t relate to each other in a nice way all the time, that’s a matter for society in general?
I certainly didn’t think it had any place at a blogging conference. Even more so when you consider blogging is still a niche and is being driven into the mainstream by the very type of people who are opinionated and want to get the conversation and debate started – and opinionated views aren’t always “nice” to one the parties being discussed. Asking bloggers to water down what they are saying – and how they say it – seems very counter-productive.
It’s is my understanding that Mena has come under for some criticism on the blogosphere – both professional and person. Professional stuff, such as picking over business decisions she/Six Apart has made seems fair game to me – that’s business. Even more so you choose to take a figure-head role in a company pioneering, by definition, a highly opinionated market. If you don’t like it, step down, take yourself out of the limelight, etc.
However, I understand that there have been a number of personal comments written about Mena too. I’m not aware of what’s been written, so it’s difficult for me to comment on that – but what I would say is that people writing nasty personal things about each other in every medium – it’s case in point for why this is a matter for society, not specifically the blogosphere. People have written some pretty awful comments about me – and you just have to roll with the punches.
I would say that at times it did sound like she was speaking from a very emotional and personal position – clearly upset by what has been said about her. However, she was introduced as “Mena Trott – president of Six Apart” and as such I felt it just wasn’t appropriate to ‘make it personal’ within the environment and context she was addressing.
Whilst all of this was going on, we were making our thoughts known on the conference backchannel (like we did for every session, good or bad). From what others were saying it was clear her speech was getting a lot of other people’s backs up too, not just mine. I wrote several times that I found elements of the speech patronising – especially when the idea was floated about a suggested “terms and conditions” for commenting.
During the backchannel conversation I did finally loose my cool and describe what she was saying as “bullshit” – which I concede is a strong word to have used. However, this was a backchannel environment and as such I feel it went up to, but didn’t cross the line, of what you can reasonably expect from “backchannel discourse”. I also want to reemphasise that that the tone and content of Mena’s speech was so unbelievably way off what was appropriate given the nature of the audience. This sentiment has been backed up by others someone even described it as “startlingly naïve” during a post-session chat about it.
However, my “bullshit” comment hadn’t gone unnoticed, as the backchannel was also being projected onto the screens at the front of the auditorium. Clearly this was the straw the broke the camel’s back, and Mena highlighted my comment. Shel Israel came to her defense and demanded for “dotBen to stand up and show yourself” [clairification: Mena asked me to stand up, Shel voiced his support]
And being the no-shit kinda guy I am, I did. In front of 400 influential bloggers and opinion formers I stood up
What followed was a brief but frank discourse between Mena at the lectern and me, with a radio mic, at the back of the hall.
At this point my thoughts were as follows:
- I was shocked and angry that I was singled out from a group of many users on the backchannel who were all saying the same thing
- I was also shocked that Mena had just done the self same thing she was telling everyone else not to do. She had called me an ‘asshole’, and I understand from others possibly even a
‘fucking asshole’[update: she just called me an ‘asshole’ and used the F word at me separately]. - Intentionally or unintentionally, events were unfolding here to make me look like a fall guy – and my immediate instinct was to fight back.
However airing our ‘dirty laundry in public’ would have done neither of us any good. Although I was angry that someone was trying to make me look foolish, my integrity told me not to do the self same thing back to her. Defending myself would ultimately mean attacking back, and I didn’t want to want Mena look a fool in return. Aside from this conference speech, I have a lot of respect for she and Ben Trott have done with Six Apart.
I did immediately respond by saying that I felt her speech was patronising – because I felt (and still feel) it was. That was the response to the direct question of why I wrote what I wrote. However I did my best to diffuse the situation by suggesting that this wasn’t the best place to do this, and that we take our disagreement ‘offline’.
Shel voiced his opinion that maybe there should be a show of hands to see who else agreed with me, to which there was a general groan of “no”, that that was a bad idea. I’m glad there wasn’t as I know that the room was very divided on whether her speech was appropriate or not. Either way, one of us would have gone away looking silly, and I didn’t want that for either of us.
Mena and I had a very productive conversation, the details of which will remain private between ourselves. I’m pleased to say though that it ended with a smile, a hand shake and we even went outside to both cool down and reflect on things.
During the rest of the conference many people – from individual bloggers through to representatives of blue-chip companies – came up to me to support what I did. Thanks to all of you who did – it meant a lot to me.
As I said before, I have a lot of respect for Mena and her husband and co-founder Ben with what they have done with Six Apart. And I’m not writing that as some crappy “bullshit” (for want of a better word) to brown nose, etc – I do have integrity even if I was accused otherwise.
I really didn’t want to write this blog post, as my take on it all is that Mena and I have patched up our differences and this is all water under the bridge. I’ve moved on
However I’ve read a couple of posts circulating on the blogosphere that have wildly inaccurate accounts of what happened – even by people who introduce their post by saying that they weren’t actually at the conference. I know that most people will take these kinds of posts for what they are – second hand accounts.
However, the fact that my reputation was put on the line – and continues to – has meant that I feel it appropriate to write up at least my take on the days events.
Nevertheless, I guess I won’t be getting a discount on a MovableType licence in the future!
comment are closed on this post due to the high volume of comment spam it receives. If you would like to make a comment, two years after this occurred mind, please send it to me directly
Although I’m no fan of IRC backchannels during a presentation, I saw the video available on the web and I think you conducted yourself quite well under the circumstances. I think it was an interesting event, which gives us much to think about (though not many will, I’m afraid). I’d offer more, but I want to think about it some more.
Ben, there is such as thing as basic respect for another human being. Your backchannel comments clearly showed that you lacked any respect for Mena’s contributions towards the blog community and industry. I’m not at Les Blogs, but this exchange looks a lot more like self-serving ego-boosting for Ben Metcalfe than it looks like a frank discussion or debate about the merits of Mena’s presentation.
Until you can show that you have respect for someone other than yourself, I will judge you based on your actions — which from the video clip I saw, leave a pretty bad first impression.
My recollection of the “public” events is slightly different from yours in that I heard Mena Trott say: “What the fuck” when she read the “bullshit” comment. I also think she got you to stand up and not Shel, but it’s not a big deal.
What surprised me at the time is she had no idea who “dotben” was, given there were only two Bens there: you and Ben Hammersley and it wasn’t exactly hard to work out which was which (Ben H. used “BenHammersley” on the backchannel). I got a sense that you had wound her up the day before – in which case she could have talked to you then, if she had wanted to.
The second more obvious problem was that it was her company, Six Apart, that had organised the conference, provided the back channel and projected it onto the screen at times. Given that there were no “rules” -and I am not suggesting there should be any – about how it was used, I was surprised that she took issue with it. I thought the backchannel was variously entertaining, interesting, boring, inane, amusing and dull but it certainly added another dimension to the proceedings. So it seemed odd that she reacted the way she did.
I thought you handled the public “shaming” very well, and your rant seems a fair reflection of what happened – or at least the bits I saw. Cultural differences lie at the heart of all this and I was left with the impression that the world is not as flat as some would have us believe.
To counter-balance Dave Winer, here’s a a vote for the “fabulous Ben Metcalfe” side of the ledger. If this keeps up, I’m changing my name to “Trevor” or “Niles” and moving East.
If you think being nicer is so irrelevant why do you get upset about being called an asshole? Are you a tough straight-talking no-bullshit Marlboro-smoking European, or are you one of those limp-wristed touchy-feely California guys?
I noted that my comment is “awaiting moderation.” Why? if you’re so into bashing people why moderate comments? Why not let the back-channel discuss your stuff without interference?
Dave:
I didn’t get upset about being called an asshole – I was shocked that the speaker of the session, and president of the company organising the company said that. Not upset.
Your comment was awaiting moderation simply because I have the usual problems with spam. And as you will see from the time stamps your comment was ‘held’ for no more than 5 minutes.
I publish all comments, good and bad (hey there’s a fair amount of bad ones!) – I just choose to dump spam like everyone else. I have no problems with my errections, etc…
Is it really a backchannel if it’s projected on a giant screen? I’m impressed that speakers at the conference had the courage to stand in front of that.
I wonder why you were shocked. She’s a person — right? What’s the first thought that pops into your head when I say you’re bullshitting. So you heard what she thought. Big fucking deal.
And I don’t see how you know what the rest of the audience thought. You sure didn’t know what I thought (watching it on vidcast after the fact). Yeah I know I live in California, therefore I’m defective, but I also come from NY another place where people are known for being direct.
The thing is, in NY, you can’t have everyone telling everyone what they think of everyone else all the time. It would get out of hand really quickly. That’s the pragmatic side of what Mena was saying and that you weren’t getting.
I never thought comments were an integral part of blogging. You can go back and read my archive to see that I’ve been pretty consistent about that. I’d say to Mena, yeah it’s a problem, but it isn’t going to get solved, but it’s still worth saying it’s a problem. The cool thing about blogs is that unlike mail lists you can get work done even if there are sticks in the mud dragging their feet trying to keep anything from getting done. Not true in the comments, which are more like a mail list.
Anyway, not much more to be accomplished here. One more thing — Ben Hammersley is a dickhead. ;->
I think Ben was rude to make a remark like that which was being presented on screen in front of all – we all have to choose are words but then again she over reacted and contradicted herself so both looked silly.
At the end of the day it doesn’t much matter in the grand scheme of the world and even blogging. Both seem to be people who enjoy public attention and these kind of things are all part of it. I expect next time Ben wont say anything in a backchannel without a bit of thought and likewise Im sure Mena wont start loosing the plot in the middle of a presentation.
Ok first thing, I was NOT in the conference and only watched the vidcast but I did get into a conversation with someone who was there.
The reason why nothing was accomplished, could be for the exact reasons of what Ben was getting at? Cultural differences… Unless people like Ben stand up and call people on these things, we will never deal with the core issue.
about the actual timeframe.
I’m not saying I’m totally supporting Ben in the way it came about but if you step back for one second. Mena was a speaker presenting, she understands not everyone will be in agreement. And to be fair to Ben, he did not plan to interupting her talk. He didnt shout her down and was actually listening to her. He was using the backchannel to voice his views like many others which is exactly what its there for!
Now if we want to start a conversation about Ben’s point…
…and of course Mena’s invited to reply
Here is my two cents: Everything has a Price.
Civility is nice but, as a norm everyone must follow, it’s as comfortable as a bowtie to a person who is more used to baremetal communication. So called baremetal communication has a price too in that folks raised in more civil surroundings feel offended easily and noise called emotions intervenes. In the end, I believe tolerance (elasity) supercedes both civility (curve) and frankness (line).
To sum it up, my advice is to:
1. be civil mostly.
2. be direct when civility intereferes more than helps.
3. be tolerant always
It tells me much that those who still choose to call you a cowardly asshole were not actually there.
I’m nothing to do with Les Blogs, and I run a mile from controversy. But three months back I did have strong opinions about the direction of TypePad’s European operation, especially after reading Mena Trott’s public opinions on it. I didn’t want to get into an argument, so I put it into a private letter (paper, remember that?) to Mena.
I didn’t get a reply, which disappointed me.
I followed up with a friendly phone call to TypePad’s PR head, who agreed to forward my concerns, but I still didn’t get any feedback. Perhaps one needs to blog to get Mena to call you anything. Shame, I still think there’s a place for letters.
[…] However, others found the experience not so productive. When the criticism from Ben was deemed too harsh then Mena (from the stage) forced him to stand and give an account for his actions. There was quite a scary teacher-pupil kind of thing going on and it reminded me of once when as a pupil, I was told by the headmaster to stand up and ‘face the music’ in front of the whole school. I can’t even remember the misdemeanour now (I was probably guilty though!) but the buttock-clenching embarassment is still fresh in my mind. Fast forward to 2005 – How not to deal with an unruly student- the video […]
Ben – What a perfect “Internet Reality Show” moment: The speaker is proposing that people use more care and tact when communicating with someone on the web. Someone in the audience writes “What a load of BS” on a chat line (that’s being displayed to the audience listening to said speaker. The speaker reads the chat comment and someone thinks “Who has the nerve to do so insensitive? Stand up…”
Insensitive geek stands up and guess what… He’s actually pretty cool
(A coward some might suggest) but I think he showed calm under fire. Let’s not put too fine a point on the fact that the insensitive geek
hurt the speaker’s feelings (unintentionally, if insensitively) and then
made every effort to calm the situation.
You simply can’t make this stuff up!
Then, in a dizzying spin of downward spiral that typifies everyone’s comment sections (except dave Winer who doesn’t believe in comments from others… I wouldn’t dare to consider that cowardly considering his ability to expand the dimensios of insensitivity and sensitivity in the same day) the name calling
starts.
If you’re not pissing someone off then you’re probably wasting a lot of air (or type). And if you can’t back-pedal when you hurt someone unintentionally then you’re worthy of the asshole epithet. It’s sounds like you did and didn’t do good. Congratulations… you have and can express opinions.
Keep it up!
The pursuit of truth and acts of truthfulness are obviously good and it seems that you did that (saw the video, read the blogs, talked with people about it – nothing like seeing an event though to really get the gist). On the AlwaysOn Backchannel this summer, we saw a lot of BS going on as well as just bizzarre questions, we called it and Tony Perkins modified the direction. It worked well I think as it seems to have done at Les Blogs.
As someone who believes in the ‘we should all be nicer’ to each other camp, please allow me to share a few thoughts. If we Bloggers are all so smart, we should be able to have open, frank and honest discussions about whatever we want – especially when we disagree with someone. The problem is that most people don’t know how to civily disagree with someone, the disagreement becomes emotional and all hell breaks loose. This usually ends in people calling each other names. While I did not see/hear the entirety of Mena’s presentation, I do believe this is really what she was looking for. Calling each other names is so ‘grade school’ it makes everyone look infantile – more so when it is because we disagree with them.
To my point in the backchannel yesterday at the end of the conference. What is the purpose of the statements in question? To make a point, to express dissatisfaction, to reshape the direction of the conversation or is it just to be an asshole and muck things up?
I do think the way Mena handled it was very personal in nature as opposed to corporate. This is the new wave of enterpreneur’s open personalities rather than being controlled by corporate handlers – this is good, but it will create more situations like this I am sure. Given the surprise, you handled yourself exceptionally well and I really want to congratulate you on that. An example for all to be sure.
Which is the real point. Yes the early bloggers are more opinionated (and according to some, ‘the most opinionated group of assholes in history’) so we expect opinions. I see this issue akin to the problem with celebrities and sports stars who don’t believe they are ‘role models’ and as such do all sorts of things that paint them as less than leaders in their community. As the early adopters, I would like to think we can lead by example and show others how this can work making the world better for everyone, which is what the last 30 minutes or so of the backchannel was all about (how cool btw).
we have an opportunity to open the conversation to billions of people around the world – wouldn’t it be a shame if many of them are shouted down, bullied and embarrased out of participating. Dave Winer, you, Tara, FactoryJoe, myself and others have thick skins, but not everyone. No you don’t need to be concerned with newcomers to blogging in the least if you don’t want to. But like it or not, as Blogebrities, you are being looked at by others who will mimic your behaviour, much as a child repeats the work ‘fuck’ if they hear someone say it.
There is another issue here that is important – anonymity. You stood up and took credit for your statements (brave, and again an example for all). But many people hide behind anonymous personas incapable of defending whatever they say with more than personal attacks and generally just being an asshole. There are good reasons for anonymity in many contexts (China, North Korea, etc…) but in the context of the commons, or a particular community such as LesBlogs, I don’t see it as helpful in the least as it merely serves to protect people who are behaving inappropriaitely.
This is obviously something deep and something I have been thinking about for a while which I can not do justice in the form of a comment – would really like to speak with you more about it, skype me perhaps?
I think the conversation as it relates to you, and to Mena, is probably being overemphasized. More important is the point that you alluded to: Many people don’t have blogs yet, and don’t have a way to have a voice online, or to connect to their friends. And many businesses (especially in Europe), don’t have an idea that blogs can be used as a business tool.
And if you look at the adoption of other new technologies, from word processing to email, that found their way into mainstream use, they managed to do so without being saddled with the association of being used by malcontents. There hasn’t been an “attack of the spreadsheet users!” headline on any general-interest magazine ever, as far as I know. But if you ask the head of a large company in the U.S. or the E.U. what blogs are about, they’ll think (as often as not) that blogs are a threat to be contained.
That perception is the responsibility of all of us who care about the medium. I think Mena’s showing strong leadership in speaking to that concern with an audience that can do something about it.
And if you’re interested, I’d be glad to offer you a 50% discount on a Movable Type license. As always, we’ve got a free version of MT, and members of our Professional Network community get a free commercial license too. Just let me know. 🙂
Your backchannel comments clearly showed that you lacked any respect for Mena’s contributions towards the blog community and industry.
With respect, if Mena Trott had been giving an award acceptance speech for Outstanding Contributions Towards The Blog Community And Industry, you’d have a point. She wasn’t; you don’t. Ben’s argument appears to be that Mena wasn’t particularly showing respect towards the character of her audience. This is not uncommon at tech conferences, although the culture clash usually arises when marketing people present to techies, and those techies feel short-changed. It’s an argument that ought be challenged, rather than flat-dismissed on pointless charges.
On the wider question of civility and anonymity, as raised by Forbes et al? Well, they would say that, wouldn’t they? I have no problem with SixApart promoting the idea of ‘kinder, gentler blogging’ if that opens up a business market, just as I have no problem with the idea of getting Pat Boone to do covers of black artists for a white-bread audience. But I do have problems with the implied suggestion, ‘stop being so rude, you’re scaring away men in suits’. ( I may well be misconceiving that implication, so forgive me if I’m wrong.) After all, Pat Boone’s producers weren’t in the business of telling Little Richard and Fats Domino to calm down.
(Or, another rough analogy: imagine Gutenberg complaining that people were using the printing press to create business flyers, and that it scared off people interested in Bibles.)
Here’s the point: we’re long past the days when you describe the blogosphere as homogeneous. That horse hasn’t just bolted; it’s been melted down for glue. Frankly, there’s a market for those who embrace blogs or blog-esque sites as a medium for pseudonymous incivility (a site named something like BigPinkBasketballs comes to mind), and as much as I like Mena, I don’t think she’s going to change that.
To be fair, you called what she was saying ‘bullshit’ in the backchannel in full view of everyone and she didn’t have any other way of responding to what you were saying other than to express it out loud. You might think it was rude of her to call you out in public, but that’s precisely what you were doing. I would have thought it obvious that if you type something up in that space you should behave rather differently than if it were a private channel between a few friends. I’m not going to pretend I’ve never said anything bad in a backchannel, but I’m also pretty sure that other people would have had a perfect right to call me out about it.
As to the content of Mena’s talk – I think it’s perfectly reasonable to argue that people should try and be more polite to one another, online as offline. You can’t necessarily expect it, but it doesn’t seem like an unreasonable thing to aspire to. I ask people on my comments to: “Please stay on-topic, informative and polite. I reserve the right to remove comments for whatever vague capricious reasons seem reasonable at the time.” You might not agree, but still – calling the talker’s opinions bullshit in front of them is something that you should be confronted for, and all power to Mena for doing so.
Nobody seems to be acknowleding the huge power differentials that come into play there, and it’s simply *not* the same thing as making comments in the backchannel. For her to comment on and respond to Ben’s remarks are one thing (although civility in her response would have gone much further towards furthering her call for civility from others). For her to swear at him from the podium and and call him out is something quite different.
It’s also worth saying that there’s a difference between saying that a speaker’s remarks are bullshit, and saying that a person is an asshole. One is about content, the other is about personalities. I think Mena crossed a line there.
I agree with Liz Lawley on this one. The power balance is very different when your standing on the stage telling someone to stand up and expain there actions.
I would almost say Mena should have been the one calming things down.
People are just forgetting that that morning, the backchannel was almost never on screen during Mena\’s presentation (which was also the first in the morning). It only came at the end with people\’s comment on it and that\’s why Mena reacted because \”bullshit\” was the first thing she saw.
At that time the backchannel was more a private channel and turning it on while there was \”bullshit\” on it really looked like a set up.
Funny, Loic just called a guy \” a piece of shit\” because he made some bad comments about Les Blogs 2.0.
After asking bloggers for more civility it must be six apart\’s new way of communication.
http://www.loiclemeur.com/france/2005/12/emmanuel_parody.html
[…] The victim of Mena’s breakdown, Ben Metcalfe comes to his own defence on his blog here, and writes that they made up afterwards, but in a room full of business people, probably investors as well, Mena’s totally lost the plot. […]
The back channel was being projected? Seems to me that no longer makes it a back channel – but part of the public conversation.
If that’s the case, both parties were out of line. Mena for not directly addressing the criticism and Ben for not directly addressing the criticism.
This is a great thread, a great example of the culture that is being created each day online. There is a small group of us who have been having a series of irregular phone calls about this topic – we’ve been calling them “Us/Them.” If anyone is interested in joining the next one, leave a comment on my blog. I hope we have one this month. I’ve found the phone conversations helpful in both a) building my skin thicker, b) figuring out how to make unproductive friction more productive and c)hearing others’ perspectives on the issue. (Like we have here – THANKS!)
[…] What happens is she singles him out and lashes out. The guy’s name is Bob Metcalfe. Well done Bob. You be femes now! […]
You should spell it “arsehole”, Ben 😉
Was just blogging about the disparity between SixApart (TypePad)’s belief in communication and their ability to do it. And quoting Mena:
http://www.themanwhoinventedtheinternet.com/2005/12/typepad_communi.html
Hey Asshole!
I like to start the day by getting my full RDA of irony so I have to admit, the whole Mena Trott vs. Ben Metcalfe dust up at Les Blogs cracks me up.
On the one hand you have the American founder of the company hosting the event lecturing Europeans ab…
this is scary “…400 influential bloggers and opinion formers…” … in the real world just how influential are bloggers anyway. The general public don’t know what they (we) are, and the mainstream press either vindicate or feed off the content… but I know what it’s like to stand up in front of hundreds of your peers and express a, sometime contrary, personal opinion – kudos.
And well done for getting a mention in the Register (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/12/08/lesblogs_nice_call/) I wouldn’t know who you are from Adam apart from that write-up. And I’m an ex-Brit, Euro worker, now living in Australia… so the world is a small place!)
A silly, pedantic comment (but it’s what used to annoy me about the Guardian and just because blogging is the new journalism it doesn’t excuse any drop in standards)… a typo… it was a collective GROAN in the audience, not a GROWN – funnily enough all a blog really is is a personal journal or diary (ignore the hype for a moment… or come flame me… it could be a new meme) and it’s just the hype surrounding this new art-form that has elevated the whole blogsphere beyond sounding board. So both your opinion (and comments) and Menas reaction are (a) equally valid and (b) could have happened in any schoolyard around the world if there was a difference of opinion – the sheer visibility of the blogging mechansim (and the ease that tools like those rfrom SixApart and Blogger) enables silly squabbles like this (which you’re obviously totally moved on from and kudos for you and Mena on that score) to become a major talking point around the globe
And isn’t that scary when you consider poverty, AIDS, hunger, pollution and other stuff that actually matters?! But of course it’s the reason tabloid papers, gossip magazines (and chardonnary fueled posts like this one) exist… to help us shy away from what really matters and slashdot ourselves to death
Ben – well done for standing up and saying what you did. Mena – well done for providing the forum and not shying away. Who knows. Maybe Europe and the US will come a little bit closer to crossing the divide that is a common language and a disparate set of values and cultures as a result of this…
or maybe not, but it’s all good fun!
PS…. (I hate thinking of more stuff five minutes later)
the bigegst problem with the web – be it blogs, forums, IRC, mailing lists, back channels at conferences is…. simply the people often don’t apply the same self censorship and good manners that we lay claim to as a civilised people.
Flame wars – be they as a result of saying “Bullshit” on a backchannel (not really one if it’s projected on the main screen) or in an anonymous forum post are an example of how easy it is (especially with cultural differences) to slide into poor behaviour – and then have that accepted as the norm so the next itteration is even lower down the symantic food chain.
I defend to the hilt the right for you to make that “bullshit” comment, just as I defend the right of reply.
What worries me is the precendent it sets. In terms of a degradation of lingusitic subtlty and reparte – to quote The Register again “…profanity (nicely defined as a dull mind attempting to express itself with force).” … there are possibly more elegant and less heated ways that the comment could have been expressed, especially as you knew it would be displayed on the main screen rather than as a private whispered aside to an adjacent friend.
I am not a neo-luddite who thinks that texting, IM and the easy availability of blogging tools will destroy language as we know it, but I am concerned about the ease with which we objectify people and allow ourselves to become dis-associated from the consequences of free speech. The lack of personal responsibility and accountability (and how people react when it’s foisted back upon them) is I think a more important issue here than one innocent “Bullshit:
Of course, I may be talking utter cr@p… but I respect (and encourage) anyones right to hold that opinion – provided they can express it without resorting to personal insults of other flame war characteristics
Pax et lux
[…] Yes. Or something. […]
Well sir, I have to commend you for speaking your opinion in the most honest manner you can.
If people think that using the word “bullshit” is rude, when airing a personal opinion, then perhaps they need to pull their head outta their backside. Bullshit is just a word, it serves no other purpose than being a strong word that conveys passion. I think the word “prude” is more fitting here.
IMHO, it’s about damn time people start saying what they feel, instead of skirting around issues and not saying what they really mean, in fear of upsetting someone. Sod that! You can have respect for people, AND passionately disagree with them. You just need to be open minded.
A nice read indeed.
Same as it ever was — people are brave an’ crude online and circumspect chickenshits in realspace. I wonder if Ben called her ideas “bullshit” in their little one-on-one? Why the difference in tone?
Having an on-screen ‘backchannel’ while someone is giving a speech is a terrible idea to begin with.
[…] As expected, each party tells their side of the story on their own blogs: Mena; Ben […]
“Ben – well done for standing up and saying what you did. Mena – well done for providing the forum and not shying away.” – OffBeatMammal
Exactly. There’s been much made (mostly by ourselves) of the fact that blogging is a discourse and with it the comes the benefits of opening up a conversation with your reader. We follow certain conventions of politeness in verbal communication so perhaps there is a case for similar in blogs? Difficult/almost impossible to police and would this indeed discourage or dilute opinionated discussion?
Rudeness or nastiness is never acceptable in any forum but it happens and often initiates a discourse that may lead to resolution. Ultimately it must be something that we develop a self-policing system for that relies on a set of manners and etiquettes that can be broken.
Yah made Rotting Dog Blog. 😉
“Bad news from the annual Blogfelch love-in in Paris. Seems that Mimi
Trotty’s keynote speech was interrupted by hecklers who suggested she
‘f*ck off’. She responded with ‘no, you f*ck off’ at which point a
blog storm wedge attempted to occupy the stage shouting ‘why don’t you
all just f*ck off?’ Jesus. Why can’t we all learn to love each other?”
http://www.theregister.com/2005/12/08/rotting_dog_blog/
[…] I can’t, won’t and wouldn’t be asked to justfy Ben Metcalfe’s using the word bullshit to describe the style of a speech given in Paris to a group af about 400 ‘infuential’ bloggers by Six Aparts Mena Trott. […]
hehe 😉 Regsitered.. next stop /.
I wonder if this would feature on BBC News Tech, now that would be funny.
Ben, a question, were you representing yourself or the BBC at Les Blogs?
> I was shocked and angry that I was singled out from a group of many > users on the backchannel who were all saying the same thing
I though I was an anonymous member of the mob attacking someone with the courage to speak publicly. I didn’t realize the back channel could flip around and be used to talk about the people in it. Hey, buddy, you got punked.
[…] ???? Six Apart ??????????? Blog Herald ??????? Mena Trott implodes on stage at Les Blogs: calls participant an Asshole after lecturing audience about the importance of civility ???????????????IT????? No.1 ???????????????? Register ??????????????Six Apart chief’s ‘nice’ speech ends in name-calling ?????????????????????? Ben Metcalfe (!) ??????????????????????? Mena ????? Dave Winer ???????????????????????????????Shel Israel ? Mena ??????????????? ???Mena ????????????????????????? SixApart ? Blog ????? […]
[…] Theregister has this article Six Apart chief’s ‘nice’ speech ends in name-calling Six Apart going down (Zoli’s blog) Me + Mena Ben Metcalfe (the backchanneler) Intermediated conferences DLTQ.org Backchannel is back Burningbird Mena Trott declares civil war Workbench Art Of Debate Lost On Americans Adpulp A Kinder, Gentler Bloghesphere? Stowe Boyd Corante […]
[…] With an amazing sense of grace and passion, what Web 2.0 has evolved into is Bringing Our Dirty Laundry Online or – […]
“Sure, it might be a positive aspiration for everyone to be “nicer”, but surely that’s not an issue for the blogosphere? Surely if people don’t relate to each other in a nice way all the time, that’s a matter for society in general?”
Sure it’s an issue for the blogosphere. It’s ridiculous to suggest that the tone of discourse is unrelated to the medium through which it’s being conducted. People generally “behave” differently on blogs than they do in person. That’s the beauty of them, but it has its downside. I do commend you for not putting forth two faces and for matching what you say here with what you said in person.
[…] Mena Trott and Civility David Tebbutt Six Apart chief’s ‘nice’ speech ends in name-calling TheRegister Six Apart going down (Zoli’s blog) Me + Mena Ben Metcalfe (the backchanneler) Intermediated conferences DLTQ.org Backchannel is back Burningbird Mena Trott declares civil war Workbench Art Of Debate Lost On Americans Adpulp A Kinder, Gentler Bloghesphere? Stowe Boyd Corante Dave Winer wades in Scribting News Dave Winer HorsePigCow thoughts about the backchannel […]
[…] Mena (von SixApart) beschimpft auf der Les Blogs 2.0 Konferenz in Paris Ben (BBC Blogger) als “Asshole”, live auf dem Podium , und das vor versammelten Publikum (400 Gäste). So what? Mena ist eben eine Zicke. Mädchenkram… halt, und das ist echter Männerkram: […]
I wasn’t present for Mena’s speech, and while I can imagine I probably would have at least rolled my eyes and cringed for her: Even if I totally agreed with what she said – and not having been there, I don’t know if I would or wouldn’t – I would have known it would go down like a lead balloon at Les Blogs.
If blogs have taught us anything, it is that ‘professional’ people are not one dimensional. When the COO of Sun Microsystems gets excited about blogging in a personal capacity at a conference, none of us would express shock. Neither should we be shocked when ‘professional’ people show their humanity in other ways. Indeed, we should be chuffed that they’re not putting on a slick, PR-vetted facade. I can’t believe that anyone would actually advocate the fortification of that facade of – ahem – bullshit.
Although I was angry that someone was trying to make me look foolish, my integrity told me not to do the self same thing back to her. Defending myself would ultimately mean attacking back, and I didn’t want to want Mena look a fool in return.
How noble of you. I understand from Adriana that you’re a really nice guy, Ben, but if you’ve got to tell people how much integrity you’ve got, what a no-shit kind of guy you are, and how compassionate your behaviour towards others is (after you’ve attacked them in public, that is), then your actions themselves aren’t really conveying that integrity, honesty, and compassion. Indeed, you didn’t seem too concerned about making Mena look like a fool when you were slagging off her speech as she gave it.
Again, I’m not sure if I would have agreed with Mena’s talk or not. I don’t really “care about the medium”, as Anil put it, as much as I care about what it can enable – for individuals, charities, and businesses. But I know that it’s a damn good idea not to say anything about a person on a blog – or in a blog’s comments – that you wouldn’t feel perfectly comfortable saying to their face. Somewhere in the few seconds between the public backchat and Mena calling you to account, your comfort level with blasting her changed dramatically. I think the level corrected itself; the real integrity, honesty, and compassion would be in admitting that.
I was there. And what I saw was a person being perfectly polite and asking for respect – Mena – and an anonymous dotben – you – trolling around in the backchannel with total disrespect for either the speaker or the audience. When Mena got fed up, she demanded you to stand up, and at that point it wasn’t a matter of being brave or a “no-shit kinda guy” at all: you knew you HAD TO do so, because otherwise someone around you would have fingered you for sure, and it would have been worse. I’m sorry, Ben, you might be a nice person in other aspects of your life, I’m not to judge you at all and I have nothing to say about you because I don’t know you, but as far as I know, Mena is a nice person who has contributed a lot to the blogging community, and you are a disrespectful troll with very bad education. The problem of trolling is that if you get caught, you lose all your credit for a long, long time. Now I know what I’ll think whenever I read Mena’s posts, and in the same way I’ll know which credit I’ll be giving to anything written by Ben Metcalfe: nothing at all.
I hate blogs.
Not becasue of the concept, that’s ace. Its a giant distributed forum for anybody who feels strongly about X, Y or even Z to stand up and be linked. No, that’s all just fine.
I hate blogs because you all take it so very, very seriously. Massively over-long, pseudo intellectual posts about, quite frankly, bollocks, are proudly published so when Bill Gates, George Bush and Steve Jobs can all visit your site they can read about how great you are, and apply your theorys on economic growth. Or whatever.
Online reputations are jealously guarded against anything that could be percieved as a slur, and these people you’re so keen to lable your peers; abused the moment they don’t agree with you, or you them.
Get over it guys. The blog information revolution has come and gone, and all we’ve been left with is the technology to read and annotate each other’s digital post-it notes. If you can’t even manage to do that without being rubbish, why not call it a day?