So, you don’t dispute that Dr. Rice’s smile was taken completely out of context then?

Who, me? Yeah I do. But I’ve said my piece and let you have yours.

I don’t see what else is being added to the debate.

There are also Jews that eat pork…

So, you don’t dispute that Dr. Rice’s smile was taken completely out of context then?

I think the last (or the last-but-one?) Economist had some good speculation on the reasons for the level of retaliation this time, part of it sort of reasonable (if retreating from the occupied territories is going to cause more and more brazen attacks, Israel has to show that it is not going just let it happen or the pull-outs will stop and that might be worse) and part of it less reasonable (unlike Barak and Sharon, Olmert wasn’t a war hero and so, politically, had to show his toughness).

But I don’t think I agree that this has much of a long term impact on either the level of Muslim anger around the world (I suspect some Sunnis are still a *little* bit happy about it, and anyway some percentage will hate us no matter what, because they really believe in hudood and honor killings and FGM and think that we’re a damned, slut-filled, morally-corroded decadent society of would-be dhimmis) or the long term prospects for peace - even before this started, it didn’t seem any closer than it did 5 years ago, or 5 years before that, or 5 years before that …

Alfoiz, the destruction of Israel being the only just path is complete nonsense (by your logic I assume we should be installing a Caliphate in Istanbul again to “make things right” - or was there something special about 1922 and Iraq, Jordan and Israel should all be administed by Britain?)

Steven: modern suicide bombings started in 1983 (remember Beruit?) by … hey, Hezbollah! But yes, they did come to Israel following the massacre at the Cave of the Patriarchs. And Goldstein was a horrible, wicked, disgusting person. But the way you say it sure sounds like that makes the suicide bombings OK — their justifications are no less lunatic than Goldstein’s.

(Hmm - we all have such a strong tendency to make the other side “more wrong” as if that makes any difference. I honestly don’t know what I would do, on either side of the border, if there were bombs going off around me and friends and family were being killed …)

Hezbollah is our common enemy. An Iranian style party is no friend of ours. But all this war is doing is giving huge prestige to Hezbollah and their Iranian backers, who may one day have a nuclear bomb. We don’t want Muslim opinion to in any way encourage the use of such a weapon. There needs to be a peace settlement in the Middle East, because this war could escalate and escalate.

For now, a traditional war cannot be won against a guerilla army. It’s a long battle for hearts and minds. If we want to persuade the people of the the Middle East that human rights, freedom and democracy can be of use to them, then this is not the way to go about it.

In the end, I think Hollywood and Coca Cola have a better chance of winning this war than bombs and missiles. Desire for a Western life style is probably what bought the Berlin Wall down. Western values are corrupting, fortunately. Hezbollah can melt away from a traditional army, but it can’t get away from people’s desire to live normal, comfortable lives. Let’s get on with tempting the Party of God’s followers away from their dedication to extremism, and let’s forget about trying to kill them.

“You know, its the Muslims that want to wipe Israel off the map. Not the other way around…”

The above is a perfect example of propaganda that is spewed out and recycled over and over again so as to justify even the worst crimes perpetrated by Israel - If it was the case that Muslims wanted to anhilate jews as did Hitler - I would have accepted Israel’s legitimacy despite its historical illegitimacy because of the likelihood of an equally great crime occurring in the future (this time against Jews).

Zionists are still at it - to legitimize what is illegitimate - by creating propaganda and creating facts on the ground.

Many muslims choose not to elaborate on the point of wiping Israel off the map because they are willing to accept a two-state solution which is less than what is righfully theirs even though a non-rebuttal gives propaganda ammunition to those who don’t want to even see a two-state solution.

Let me explain - “wiping Israel off the map” is a necessary result for a truly JUST peace. Israel’s Jewish character is fundamentally founded on what we now call “ethnic-cleansing” - the expulsion of Palestinians from Palestinian land and colonising the same land with Jewish settlers. Israel continues to maintain this “jewish character” by keeping its doors open only to Jews across the world and provides various incentives for them to settle in Israel. At the same time, in every peace process, it is doggedly opposed to the right of return of the expelled Palestinians on the ground that if that was to happen, Israel will no longer remain to be Israel as Zionists would like to have it - a state with a “Jewish character”.

So you can see - keeping Israel on the map with a “Jewish character” is a MORAL CONTRAPTION that would fall apart and not work if you recognise and enforce the legitimate rights of the Palestinian people.

I agree with Stephen Connor - we need a strong leader - from wherever - to enforce a Just peace. Unfortunately people see what is just and good - but disregard it and choose to see, do and be what is in their own interest. Darwinians would say its an evolutionary traite called ethnocenticity. Perhaps, talking about a just peace, legitimacy and fairness suites me perfectly? If the shoe was on the other foot…who knows?

That wasn’t my point. Do you really think the motivation for bombing is merely to kill Muslims, and any old Muslim will do, because the world is better off with them dead? Are Israel’s policies similar to the Nazi’s in any significant way?

Any ethical judgement that looks only at the act and not at the purposes and motivations is using a pretty weak ethics.