Comments on: I had a change of heart… http://benmetcalfe.com/blog/2006/07/finally-bbc-weather-rss-and-json-feeds/ The Virtual Investor Tue, 16 Mar 2010 23:25:53 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: Tom Coates http://benmetcalfe.com/blog/2006/07/finally-bbc-weather-rss-and-json-feeds/comment-page-1/#comment-25538 Tom Coates Sat, 29 Jul 2006 20:40:52 +0000 http://benmetcalfe.com/blog/index.php/2006/07/27/finally-bbc-weather-rss-and-json-feeds/#comment-25538 The license thing you quote, by the way, is to stop someone taking the BBC to court because the data that the BBC provided failed or was inaccurate in some way - ie. it's to stop people relying on it to keep their belongings, friends, children or themselves safe. I don't really understand what your argument was around this stuff, but it certainly won't act as a sop to data providers or protect the BBC from lawsuits. The license thing you quote, by the way, is to stop someone taking the BBC to court because the data that the BBC provided failed or was inaccurate in some way – ie. it’s to stop people relying on it to keep their belongings, friends, children or themselves safe. I don’t really understand what your argument was around this stuff, but it certainly won’t act as a sop to data providers or protect the BBC from lawsuits.

]]> By: Tom Coates http://benmetcalfe.com/blog/2006/07/finally-bbc-weather-rss-and-json-feeds/comment-page-1/#comment-25537 Tom Coates Sat, 29 Jul 2006 20:38:07 +0000 http://benmetcalfe.com/blog/index.php/2006/07/27/finally-bbc-weather-rss-and-json-feeds/#comment-25537 Richard, god knows I know what the BBC is like. I worked there doing R&D work for a couple of years and regularly found myself pushing against the organisation in places, and trying to get them to move forward in places which they might have found uncomfortable. But fundamentally, you have to either work with/within an organisation or take personal responsibility for breaking the rules. If you break the rules and do something awesome, then people can be extremely forgiving. If you break the rules and alienate a bunch of people and cause the organisation trouble then you have to expect to get into trouble or have people jump on you. It sort of stays like that after the fact - if you break the rules and the BBC ends up in a much better position, all its stakeholders (the British tax-payer) will thank you for it in the end. If you put them in a harder position, then you take responsibility for your actions. I'm not saying you don't push the boundaries occasionally, just if you do so and you fuck up then you can't really hold anyone to blame but yourself. In my opinion, Ben's quite rightly recognised this move as an error and has backed away from it and apologised. Richard, god knows I know what the BBC is like. I worked there doing R&D work for a couple of years and regularly found myself pushing against the organisation in places, and trying to get them to move forward in places which they might have found uncomfortable. But fundamentally, you have to either work with/within an organisation or take personal responsibility for breaking the rules. If you break the rules and do something awesome, then people can be extremely forgiving. If you break the rules and alienate a bunch of people and cause the organisation trouble then you have to expect to get into trouble or have people jump on you. It sort of stays like that after the fact – if you break the rules and the BBC ends up in a much better position, all its stakeholders (the British tax-payer) will thank you for it in the end. If you put them in a harder position, then you take responsibility for your actions. I’m not saying you don’t push the boundaries occasionally, just if you do so and you fuck up then you can’t really hold anyone to blame but yourself. In my opinion, Ben’s quite rightly recognised this move as an error and has backed away from it and apologised.

]]> By: Richard Edwards http://benmetcalfe.com/blog/2006/07/finally-bbc-weather-rss-and-json-feeds/comment-page-1/#comment-25339 Richard Edwards Fri, 28 Jul 2006 16:08:08 +0000 http://benmetcalfe.com/blog/index.php/2006/07/27/finally-bbc-weather-rss-and-json-feeds/#comment-25339 Tom, We obviously differ, there is not much that is truly innovative in any sphere that does not break the rules somehow, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't..... that doesn't mean it is worth a red mist. A long time ago the BBC and the Met office were both publically funded government "ideas". As such they have both been very dynamic and have shown incredible speed with which to change to suit, and lead, the new world in whichever era. When they had to, or when they wanted to.. Backstage is in fact a very positive reaction to the speed of change needed within the world of the net. It is my opinion that most contracts are only changed, or re-negociated under pressure from third parties, or as a knee jerk reaction to someone else's better ideas or financial clout, as you say. Sometimes it is a necessity to be a leader instead of towing the line..... as such, in this case, the email on Backstage exposes a potential, contractually irresponsible move by the BBC. If the same information had been posted only here on this blog, then I would agree that you would have a point, but it was not. There is one large problem with your way to get data out, the top of the organisation do not always know which data is valuable and which is not, and whether it is actually being used against the general view of how it should be or not. That said, the BBC is an innovator itself, and should lead with the power that it has. Yes, be responsible, but to everyone.... especially the public and the customer. They are the ones who ultimately decide what is and isn't valuable. So you have to test the waters. I don't believe that it is possible to cite a commercial argument for "buy-ins" and "cash money" yet jump when "commercial tactics" are used against the corporation. Auntie has a totally unique position, but complacency has always been rife. Please try to look at the reverse, the commercial world if you will, and you will see that these "tactics" are used every day, in my experience last nights scenario was very tame and in fact "helpful" in many ways. The fact that you have commented and somewhat exposed some of the current thinking being a massive plus. I am very interested to know who or what is the "top of the organisation" in your view? Perhaps they can read the following clause in the Mets contract and ask the Backstage community to become a slightly more internal entity instead of a totally public one.... Met Office License and proprietary rights "5.1. We grant to you a worldwide non-exclusive licence. Where not expressly specified you may view, print, copy for internal use, distribute internally and archive the Data subject to the limitation specified in clause 9.5", where 9.5 says the data must be destroyed after five years. Or does the BBC also want every positive with none of the negociation.... Backstage Terms.... "You must: Include the following attribution that you use content from BBC Backstage: "supported by backstage.bbc.co.uk" API Terms.... 5. Indemnity You hereby agree to indemnify, hold harmless and defend the BBC in respect of all damages, costs and expenses, including reasonable legal fees and litigation expenses, arising out of or as a result of any breach by You of the terms of this Licence or otherwise in connection with your use of the API's. " Looks like the Beeb is pretty safe within its own license and will stand to fight another day. I don't dispute that various people may have felt as though they had a serious situation to deal with, but the truth today is that there will be many positive potentials as well. I hope you all have a great weekend. Tom,

We obviously differ, there is not much that is truly innovative in any sphere that does not break the rules somehow, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t….. that doesn’t mean it is worth a red mist.
A long time ago the BBC and the Met office were both publically funded government “ideas”. As such they have both been very dynamic and have shown incredible speed with which to change to suit, and lead, the new world in whichever era. When they had to, or when they wanted to.. Backstage is in fact a very positive reaction to the speed of change needed within the world of the net.
It is my opinion that most contracts are only changed, or re-negociated under pressure from third parties, or as a knee jerk reaction to someone else’s better ideas or financial clout, as you say.
Sometimes it is a necessity to be a leader instead of towing the line….. as such, in this case, the email on Backstage exposes a potential, contractually irresponsible move by the BBC. If the same information had been posted only here on this blog, then I would agree that you would have a point, but it was not.
There is one large problem with your way to get data out, the top of the organisation do not always know which data is valuable and which is not, and whether it is actually being used against the general view of how it should be or not.
That said, the BBC is an innovator itself, and should lead with the power that it has. Yes, be responsible, but to everyone…. especially the public and the customer. They are the ones who ultimately decide what is and isn’t valuable. So you have to test the waters.
I don’t believe that it is possible to cite a commercial argument for “buy-ins” and “cash money” yet jump when “commercial tactics” are used against the corporation.
Auntie has a totally unique position, but complacency has always been rife. Please try to look at the reverse, the commercial world if you will, and you will see that these “tactics” are used every day, in my experience last nights scenario was very tame and in fact “helpful” in many ways. The fact that you have commented and somewhat exposed some of the current thinking being a massive plus.
I am very interested to know who or what is the “top of the organisation” in your view?
Perhaps they can read the following clause in the Mets contract and ask the Backstage community to become a slightly more internal entity instead of a totally public one….
Met Office License and proprietary rights
“5.1. We grant to you a worldwide non-exclusive licence. Where not expressly specified you may view, print, copy for internal use, distribute internally and archive the Data subject to the limitation specified in clause 9.5″, where 9.5 says the data must be destroyed after five years.
Or does the BBC also want every positive with none of the negociation….
Backstage Terms….
“You must:

Include the following attribution that you use content from BBC Backstage: “supported by backstage.bbc.co.uk”

API Terms….
5. Indemnity

You hereby agree to indemnify, hold harmless and defend the BBC in respect of all damages, costs and expenses, including reasonable legal fees and litigation expenses, arising out of or as a result of any breach by You of the terms of this Licence or otherwise in connection with your use of the API’s. ”

Looks like the Beeb is pretty safe within its own license and will stand to fight another day.

I don’t dispute that various people may have felt as though they had a serious situation to deal with, but the truth today is that there will be many positive potentials as well. I hope you all have a great weekend.

]]> By: Ben http://benmetcalfe.com/blog/2006/07/finally-bbc-weather-rss-and-json-feeds/comment-page-1/#comment-25323 Ben Fri, 28 Jul 2006 13:05:44 +0000 http://benmetcalfe.com/blog/index.php/2006/07/27/finally-bbc-weather-rss-and-json-feeds/#comment-25323 Rog (who posts from 'IP: 132.185.144.15 , gatef.mh.bbc.co.uk'): 'tis true. I have far too much time on my hands. It's 14:15 and I've yet to get out of bed (other than to get a drink/use the toilet). I've taken the summer off. Actually I'm super busy arranging visas and some other topic secret shit. But yes, I have to admit I am vastly under-stimulated at the moment. Rog (who posts from ‘IP: 132.185.144.15 , gatef.mh.bbc.co.uk’):

’tis true. I have far too much time on my hands. It’s 14:15 and I’ve yet to get out of bed (other than to get a drink/use the toilet).

I’ve taken the summer off. Actually I’m super busy arranging visas and some other topic secret shit.

But yes, I have to admit I am vastly under-stimulated at the moment.

]]> By: Rog http://benmetcalfe.com/blog/2006/07/finally-bbc-weather-rss-and-json-feeds/comment-page-1/#comment-25320 Rog Fri, 28 Jul 2006 12:35:05 +0000 http://benmetcalfe.com/blog/index.php/2006/07/27/finally-bbc-weather-rss-and-json-feeds/#comment-25320 Ben, get a proper job or failing that go back to your porn stash. You've clearly got too much time on your hands! Ben, get a proper job or failing that go back to your porn stash. You’ve clearly got too much time on your hands!

]]> By: Kirk http://benmetcalfe.com/blog/2006/07/finally-bbc-weather-rss-and-json-feeds/comment-page-1/#comment-25319 Kirk Fri, 28 Jul 2006 12:19:28 +0000 http://benmetcalfe.com/blog/index.php/2006/07/27/finally-bbc-weather-rss-and-json-feeds/#comment-25319 At the end of the day, you can easily copy music, and that's illegal. So is using these feeds. At the end of the day, you can easily copy music, and that’s illegal. So is using these feeds.

]]> By: Ian Betteridge http://benmetcalfe.com/blog/2006/07/finally-bbc-weather-rss-and-json-feeds/comment-page-1/#comment-25308 Ian Betteridge Fri, 28 Jul 2006 10:33:16 +0000 http://benmetcalfe.com/blog/index.php/2006/07/27/finally-bbc-weather-rss-and-json-feeds/#comment-25308 Leon: Yes, frankly, the swearing was necessary. I swear when I'm angry, and this made me f-ing angry :) As Ben. I think, now agrees, there was a difference between (say) you publishing that information, not knowing what the consequences would be, and Ben doing the same thing. Ben knows, from this experience at the BBC, what a big issue it could be - and hence shouldn't have done what he did. Ben, you've done the right thing. I hope you learn something positive. Leon: Yes, frankly, the swearing was necessary. I swear when I’m angry, and this made me f-ing angry :) As Ben. I think, now agrees, there was a difference between (say) you publishing that information, not knowing what the consequences would be, and Ben doing the same thing. Ben knows, from this experience at the BBC, what a big issue it could be – and hence shouldn’t have done what he did.

Ben, you’ve done the right thing. I hope you learn something positive.

]]> By: Leon Brocard http://benmetcalfe.com/blog/2006/07/finally-bbc-weather-rss-and-json-feeds/comment-page-1/#comment-25298 Leon Brocard Fri, 28 Jul 2006 08:13:50 +0000 http://benmetcalfe.com/blog/index.php/2006/07/27/finally-bbc-weather-rss-and-json-feeds/#comment-25298 Ian: was the swearing really necessary? FWIW I saw the new feature on news.bbc this morning, used Firefox's Live HTTP Headers extension and figured out the JSON feed with a total of about 10 seconds work. It's not like you can keep a public feed like this secret, but of course the T&C still apply. Ian: was the swearing really necessary?

FWIW I saw the new feature on news.bbc this morning, used Firefox’s Live HTTP Headers extension and figured out the JSON feed with a total of about 10 seconds work. It’s not like you can keep a public feed like this secret, but of course the T&C still apply.

]]> By: Ian Betteridge http://benmetcalfe.com/blog/2006/07/finally-bbc-weather-rss-and-json-feeds/comment-page-1/#comment-25297 Ian Betteridge Fri, 28 Jul 2006 08:01:41 +0000 http://benmetcalfe.com/blog/index.php/2006/07/27/finally-bbc-weather-rss-and-json-feeds/#comment-25297 Richard, if you'd read the official reply on Backstage, you'd see it's completely in agreement with all the points I've made - without the comments about Ben's fundamental fucking-up. The whole "it was on a public web server" argument is, of course, a red herring: Ben published the feeds, not the BBC, and knowing full-well that it would cause the BBC a whole mess of shit to clear up. He did it purely for egotistical motives, not for the greater good - because if he'd been concerned for the greater good, he would have talked to his contacts within the BBC before posting, found out how far away from going public it was, and THEN decided if he should publish. He didn't. And that, to me, indicates he's more concerned about getting kudos from a handful of people who regard themselves as "rebels" than doing any good. Richard, if you’d read the official reply on Backstage, you’d see it’s completely in agreement with all the points I’ve made – without the comments about Ben’s fundamental fucking-up. The whole “it was on a public web server” argument is, of course, a red herring: Ben published the feeds, not the BBC, and knowing full-well that it would cause the BBC a whole mess of shit to clear up. He did it purely for egotistical motives, not for the greater good – because if he’d been concerned for the greater good, he would have talked to his contacts within the BBC before posting, found out how far away from going public it was, and THEN decided if he should publish.

He didn’t. And that, to me, indicates he’s more concerned about getting kudos from a handful of people who regard themselves as “rebels” than doing any good.

]]> By: James Wheaare http://benmetcalfe.com/blog/2006/07/finally-bbc-weather-rss-and-json-feeds/comment-page-1/#comment-25260 James Wheaare Fri, 28 Jul 2006 01:13:40 +0000 http://benmetcalfe.com/blog/index.php/2006/07/27/finally-bbc-weather-rss-and-json-feeds/#comment-25260 Woe. Woe.

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